[00:00:05] Speaker A: Hello, everyone, and welcome to taxing poetic. My name is Tim Howe. I'm the CEO of Synexis tax solutions. Along with my co host, I'm Jenny Carter.
[00:00:13] Speaker B: I'm a manager with Synexis Tax Solutions.
[00:00:15] Speaker A: Awesome. And our esteemed producer, JB. What's up, dude?
[00:00:18] Speaker C: Good. I don't work for Synexis.
[00:00:20] Speaker A: No, you do not work for Synexis.
[00:00:21] Speaker C: Well, kinda. I don't know.
[00:00:23] Speaker A: It's an awkward relationship.
[00:00:25] Speaker B: I feel like we work for. You.
[00:00:26] Speaker C: Sure. Well, yes, you do. Exactly. Now that I mentioned it. Yes.
[00:00:29] Speaker B: Best boss ever. Oh, wait, Tim's right there.
[00:00:31] Speaker A: Oh, watch out.
[00:00:32] Speaker B: Oops.
[00:00:33] Speaker A: And as we were discussing awkward relationships, today's episode is going to be on the pink tax, which is technically not really even a tax. I think Jenny's going to talk to you about that here in just a second. But title of the episode was truly just clickbait, right?
[00:00:46] Speaker C: Yeah, very much. We need people to. We got to get more listeners. We had a meeting about it.
[00:00:50] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, we did. So there we go. Clickbait. Clickbait. So, Jenny, why don't you talk to us about the episode today?
[00:00:57] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, before we get to an explanation about the pink tax and other feminine hygiene taxes, I'd like to hit you up with a little haiku.
[00:01:03] Speaker A: Awesome. Go for it.
[00:01:06] Speaker B: If girls run the world, why do I pay more taxes? Was Beyonce wrong?
[00:01:14] Speaker C: You won't know what I mean by this, but that's also good.
[00:01:16] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:01:17] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:01:18] Speaker C: Sometimes we have to edit the haikus.
[00:01:21] Speaker A: Freedom of speech unless JB's involved.
[00:01:23] Speaker B: Totally.
[00:01:24] Speaker A: I love it.
[00:01:25] Speaker C: And we're on a time limit. There you go.
[00:01:26] Speaker B: Okay. Okay. So we're gonna dive right in, and first of all, we're gonna say I'm the only woman here in a room with two men. And we're all gonna be cool about this. Tim, I know we like to be 13 year olds about most things. We did an episode about pot. We did an episode about alcohol. We basically are like middle schoolers most of the time.
[00:01:43] Speaker A: We had haiku on cheetos.
[00:01:45] Speaker B: True. Yes. In visine. So today, we're gonna be cool. Like, we're gonna be total adults because half the world's population menstruates. Okay, now let's all say it. Menstruate.
[00:01:57] Speaker A: Menstruate.
[00:01:59] Speaker B: There you go. Okay.
[00:02:00] Speaker A: JB's still having a problem saying it, but that's fine.
[00:02:03] Speaker B: We all have women in our lives that we love, and this is something we all need to be, you know, grown ups about. Okay, let's get started. So what I learned in my research, which I thought was interesting, is that the pink tax is not necessarily a tax. If you sell razors, there's a men's razor and a women's razor. They could be the same exact product, but they package the women's razor in pink packaging. And therefore, women pay, I believe, 13% more for products, comparable products, than men do. So they call that 13% the pink tax.
[00:02:35] Speaker A: So if I marketed an oil filter towards a woman, you're basically telling me that I would have, like, a ten to 13% markup on it.
[00:02:41] Speaker C: Just make it pink.
[00:02:42] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:02:42] Speaker B: So it's viewed as an economic burden on women, is what I'm saying, especially. And this is not political. This is just a fact. According to the World Economic Forum, we've all heard this, especially since women continue to earn less as men on the dollar.
[00:02:54] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:02:55] Speaker B: Or so we're making less, paying more for products. And even the United nations has called on countries to eliminate pink taxes to ensure that all women have equal access to economic participation. So, anyway, so there is legislation pending in Congress, apparently called the Pink Tax Repeal Act, I guess, where products would be legally mandated to not have that markup. But again, it sounds like it's pretty complicated. Right, JB? Like, with marketing budgets and all that. So I don't know. That's just what's going on. That's the pink tax.
[00:03:28] Speaker A: Okay, interesting.
[00:03:30] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:03:31] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:03:31] Speaker B: So separately from the pink tax, what we're really going to debate today is taxes on feminine hygiene products. So that's where we are. So, JB, do you want to introduce our next segment?
[00:03:43] Speaker C: Yes, we are going to. For our audience, we did our haiku. We're going to do a quiz, and then we're going to do a high school style debate on, for and against these things. So that's coming right up after the quiz. Our quiz is all going to be about the feminine product tax, not the pink tax, even though that's the name of the episode. Okay, first question is for Tim. They stopped the tax in New York. What is their estimated revenue loss?
[00:04:11] Speaker B: I actually know this for my research.
[00:04:12] Speaker C: Ooh.
[00:04:14] Speaker A: I'm going to say, um, say 110 million.
[00:04:18] Speaker C: What?
[00:04:19] Speaker B: That's what.
[00:04:20] Speaker A: No, no.
[00:04:21] Speaker B: Can I say.
[00:04:21] Speaker C: Can I say. Yeah, sure, go ahead.
[00:04:23] Speaker B: 10 million?
[00:04:23] Speaker C: Nah. 14. Oh, all right, Jenny. In 2004, this african country became the first in the world to abolish the tax.
[00:04:31] Speaker B: Oh, wow.
Let's say Ghana.
[00:04:35] Speaker C: Kenya.
[00:04:36] Speaker A: Oh, really?
[00:04:37] Speaker B: Oh, interesting.
[00:04:37] Speaker C: Which, honestly, I feel like I know very little about Africa, but I feel like Kenya is more of like a plains, kind of like. I think if, like, maybe Nairobi is.
[00:04:45] Speaker A: A pretty progressive city, though.
[00:04:47] Speaker C: A lot of the runners, I guess.
[00:04:49] Speaker A: Our chief operating officer's family lived there for a while.
[00:04:52] Speaker B: That is true.
[00:04:52] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:04:53] Speaker B: Shout out to Nick.
[00:04:54] Speaker A: Shout out to Nick.
[00:04:55] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:04:55] Speaker A: He was actually born there, wasn't he?
[00:04:57] Speaker B: Yes, he was.
[00:04:57] Speaker A: Yeah. He was born in Kenya.
[00:04:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:58] Speaker C: It's awesome. He probably knew the answer to that question. There you go. It was in 2004. Oh, my God. A minute ago. All right, Tim, how many US states tax the products?
[00:05:09] Speaker A: I'm gonna say 32. 2020. Okay.
[00:05:13] Speaker B: I have 21.
[00:05:14] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:05:14] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:05:14] Speaker C: Yours is. Yours is of April 2023.
[00:05:17] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:05:18] Speaker A: Man, that's a lot.
[00:05:20] Speaker B: I know.
[00:05:20] Speaker C: That's a lot of states.
[00:05:21] Speaker A: That's a ton of states. Holy smokes.
[00:05:23] Speaker B: Almost half.
[00:05:23] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:05:24] Speaker C: All right, Jenny. Taxable feminine hygiene products are currently under what classification?
[00:05:29] Speaker B: Luxury items.
[00:05:31] Speaker C: Yes. Also accept what?
[00:05:34] Speaker B: Oh, what does he also say?
[00:05:35] Speaker A: What do I also say?
[00:05:36] Speaker C: Tangible individual property.
[00:05:38] Speaker A: Oh, tangible personal property.
[00:05:40] Speaker C: So is. That's a question that I had as my follow up. Is tv individual property and tangible personal property different, or is that just a different way of saying.
[00:05:49] Speaker A: It's just a different way of saying it. Tangible personal property. It's just something that you can feel, touch, and move around with the senses and stuff like that.
[00:05:55] Speaker C: Okay, Tim, who was the first state to end the tampon tax?
[00:05:59] Speaker A: California.
[00:06:00] Speaker C: No, it was Minnesota.
[00:06:01] Speaker A: What?
[00:06:02] Speaker C: I know.
[00:06:03] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh.
[00:06:03] Speaker C: You can steal it if you tell me what year.
[00:06:05] Speaker B: Oh, I know this.
[00:06:07] Speaker A: God.
2006.
[00:06:11] Speaker C: Yeah. 1981.
[00:06:13] Speaker B: What, was that crazy?
[00:06:14] Speaker C: I thought it was more wild.
[00:06:15] Speaker B: I thought that was wild, too.
[00:06:16] Speaker C: You would think if somebody did this. So that means we've been talking about it for like 50 years.
[00:06:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:20] Speaker A: No kidding.
[00:06:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:21] Speaker A: That's crazy. That's way too long to be debate. That's 60.
[00:06:25] Speaker C: If you're wondering whether or not it's going to be topical. Yes. Probably for another 50 years. There you go.
[00:06:31] Speaker A: There you go.
[00:06:32] Speaker C: All right, Jenny, last question. Which state has the highest sales tax on menstruation products?
[00:06:38] Speaker B: Oh, um.
[00:06:40] Speaker A: She's got notes. This isn't fair.
[00:06:42] Speaker B: I know. Well, I mean, it helps to do research. Tim, do your homework, please.
Please.
[00:06:50] Speaker C: I'll give you a hint.
[00:06:51] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:06:51] Speaker C: It's guessable.
What do you think I mean by that?
[00:06:54] Speaker B: Georgia.
[00:06:56] Speaker C: That's a good guess. Tim, if I said it's guessable, would you be able to.
[00:06:59] Speaker A: California.
[00:07:00] Speaker C: Oh, no, it's Mississippi.
[00:07:01] Speaker A: Mississippi. Oh, my God.
[00:07:02] Speaker C: The highest ones. Cause they're like.
[00:07:04] Speaker B: Oh, true. Like the. Yeah. Generally speaking, in Mississippi is probably a luxury.
[00:07:10] Speaker C: Oh, 100%.
Wow.
[00:07:13] Speaker A: Wow. And insert apology here.
[00:07:15] Speaker C: Congratulations. Jenny is still in the lead. Yeah. Cause nobody got any right, did.
[00:07:19] Speaker B: We had none of those.
[00:07:20] Speaker C: We still learned things. These were tough. These were numbers. Anytime you do numbers based and countries based and years, all these things, it's tough.
[00:07:25] Speaker A: Actually.
[00:07:25] Speaker C: Jenny, you get one.
[00:07:26] Speaker A: She got one. Yeah. She got the luxury tax.
[00:07:28] Speaker C: I believe you're up twelve and a half to ten and a half.
[00:07:30] Speaker A: Yep. There you go.
[00:07:31] Speaker B: Love it.
[00:07:32] Speaker C: Okay, so now we're gonna do a debate again. This is not necessarily taking a political angle in any way. We flipped the coin before, and Tim is going to be against the tax and Jenny is going to be for the tax again. These are just high school debate rules. You have to take the one that the coin told you to do. We're going to start with a two minute thing from Tim. Jenny is going to have her two minutes. Tim will rebut that for a minute or two, Jenny will rebut that for a minute or two, and then I will pick a winner of the debate.
[00:08:06] Speaker A: I love it.
[00:08:06] Speaker B: Wow. Do I get extra points on the quiz if I win? Or Tim? Does either one of us get extra points?
[00:08:12] Speaker A: Okay, there we go.
[00:08:14] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:08:15] Speaker B: The stakes are high.
[00:08:17] Speaker A: All right. So obviously, to start riffing on my basically appeal to get rid of the tax, effectively, it's a regressive tax, right? We constantly talk about regressive taxes here on this podcast. And men absolutely have no such tax on any of their products. We shouldn't punish the female populations at all for any of this. It's really not that much revenue, as JB just explained during our quiz segment with New York removing theirs, looking at about $14 million loss in revenue, that's not really going to move the needle too much in any given state. And in all honesty, the main argument here is that it's basically on classification of these items. These items should be classified as a basic necessity. It's something that a female needs on a monthly basis. There's no such tax on food on a grocery store or medicine from a pharmacy. Most items outside of this classification are deemed highly desirable with cultural society, but not necessarily not a necessity to live. And we can honestly prove, both medically that this is extremely important, and it's also, from a comfort and a safety standpoint for females. And another thing is that roughly a quarter of teens and a third of adults report having trouble affording menstrual products in a 2023 survey that was conducted. This issue is more pronounced among black and latino people compared to white people. So again, we're looking at this regressive tax, basically creating a punitive penalty to different income and different race based classes on an item that should be readily available and equalized across for everyone.
[00:09:48] Speaker C: Okay, Jenny, you ready to start the clock?
[00:09:49] Speaker B: I'm ready.
[00:09:50] Speaker C: Okay, go.
[00:09:52] Speaker B: I got some of this information from our friends at the tax foundation, which I thought was really fascinating. One thing to remember about these taxes and why it's a hot button issue, it's because it's a political issue. Sales tax applies to all products, all consumer products and services. Correct. Whether it's a necessity or luxury. We still pay taxes on groceries, although it might still be a lower rate, like we discussed earlier in the quiz, you know, we pay higher taxes for things like toys, electronics. So I think there is a space to say, sure, let's not pay luxury tax on tampons, since we consider it a necessity. I think we can all agree on that, whether we're on either side of this high school debate here. But let's also maybe discuss just taxing it at a lower rate.
Really, the grander and broader issue is just the continuing trend of shrinking state sales tax bases, which we've covered a lot on this podcast. We're losing revenue. So collectively, 14 million might not seem a lot in New York, but in California, it's close to 20 million, and it adds up. I know it seems like a sliver, but it's still lost revenue. And at the end of the day, if the revenue is lost, we got to make up for somewhere else. So we're going to just pay additional taxes somewhere else in your property or your income. And that's where I'm going to stop my debate right here.
[00:11:16] Speaker C: All right, Tim, rebuttals.
[00:11:20] Speaker A: I mean, frankly, the idea of just that this is going to shrink a tax base, I think, is completely irrelevant, especially when you're holding, you know, the idea of a good that is, you know, truly by, even by public health experts, seen as an essential good for a female. Right. I mean, I think if you look at, you know, prescription drugs, if you look at durable medical equipment, anything in the medical industry, for the most part, is typically exempted, you know, specifically by doctor's orders. In a lot of cases, durable medical equipment that's not, you know, even prescribed by doctors in a lot of states is actually exempted. Why would this be any different? And frankly, I just think it's wrong.
I think the holistic idea of having a tax that's on a specific item that's obviously already marked up, as we discussed with the pink tax component of it, women are just paying generally and more. That's wrong. And I think it needs to be reversed.
[00:12:12] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:12:13] Speaker A: In all honesty, I think it needs to be taken up as the feds are doing. I think it's something that needs to be taken up in the legislature, in the US House and Senate, and something needs to be passed from that perspective to have a grandfather clause for all states to follow.
[00:12:26] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:12:27] Speaker C: All right.
[00:12:27] Speaker B: Jenny, it just does start snowballing. When we start exempting products from tax based on political pressure, where does it stop? And it seems like incrementally it could add up to larger losses in revenue as we keep exempting further and further, making our tax base smaller. Smaller. So maybe just this tax wouldn't make a huge difference in a state's budget. But then you combine it with, you know, any other product that comes under political fire, and then we exempt that, as our friends at the tax foundation would say, it violates sound tax policy, because, again, we're just paying for it somewhere else down the line with our state taxes.
[00:13:05] Speaker A: And I think what Jenny's trying to argue is uniformity. You know, uniformity is applied a lot in property tax. You know, taking certain properties and making sure the uniform application of the tax is, you know, applied to all of those certain types of properties. I think that's completely different in this case. I think that there can be certain buckets of items, and we see that with groceries and with prepared food and with carbonated beverages and artificially sweetened beverages, certain states have passed sin taxes. Let's look at alcohol. Right? How long do we have to talk about alcohol? We've had an entire episode. And that the alcohol is taxed at such an excessively high rate. Cigarettes are taxed at a higher rate. Gas is taxed at a different rate. Right. For a number of different public works products and other things or projects. Excuse me. I just. I frankly think taking this specific bucket and causing it and focusing on it is not going to be that big of a dent in our revenue.
Nice.
[00:13:55] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, JB, what do you think? Now that you've heard both sides of the debate, I know you're going to pick a winner, but what are your.
[00:14:00] Speaker A: General thoughts before you pick general thoughts?
[00:14:02] Speaker C: It makes sense not to have the tags. It isn't that. Tim's right. It's not that much revenue. Who cares on the thing? It seems to be, you know, it's an easy win for politicians. You know what I mean? Which is always hard to come by. It's like, look, man, just get rid of this. I do see Jenny's point on that. If it, you know, it's this, and then, okay, the government says I shouldn't smoke and I had to buy nicotine patches and you're so don't tax those anymore because I need that to quit smoking. You know, where's the medical line? Where's that the slippery slope kind of aspect? But in my personal opinion, is that worry about the slope when you get to the slope, like you don't, don't not do one thing. Cause you're worried about what it might do.
[00:14:41] Speaker A: Well, and Jenny even pointed out in some research that she provided to me, chapstick, dandruff, shampoo and viagra. They actually are three of thousands of health and personal care products that are exempt from sales tax. Right.
[00:14:54] Speaker C: They're literally already doing it.
[00:14:55] Speaker A: They're already doing it.
[00:14:56] Speaker C: Just add.
[00:14:57] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, come on, man.
[00:14:58] Speaker C: Well, as all, as all debate formats are, Tim talked the most. So he won. Oh, yeah. He took, he rebuttaled your rebuttal, which wasn't in our thing. But here's the thing. This is why people do this. On. If you're ever wondering when you're watching two political adversaries debate and they keep talking out of turn, this is why. That's how you win.
[00:15:17] Speaker A: So James Carville won for years. Agent Cajun himself.
[00:15:21] Speaker C: Tim did win. It was close. It was five to four.
[00:15:23] Speaker A: There you go.
[00:15:24] Speaker B: Tim. I think you did a great job. It's also very difficult to beat Tim in any debate.
[00:15:28] Speaker C: Sure. He's a very good debate. I mean, that's one of the things. It's always going to be an uphill battle.
[00:15:33] Speaker B: It's hard to lose a debate when you're never wrong.
[00:15:35] Speaker A: I'm never wrong.
[00:15:38] Speaker C: All right, let's take a quick break and then we'll come back and Jenny's going to do her segment.
[00:15:46] Speaker B: Again. Congratulations, Tim, on winning the debate. I'm looking forward to, I mean, hopefully coming in close the next time. But let's just be clear. I am for no feminine hygiene taxes. Yeah, that's the right. That's what we decided. We're gonna stay.
[00:16:02] Speaker A: I should hope not.
[00:16:03] Speaker C: Who's playing the game?
[00:16:04] Speaker B: But, I mean, I mean, but I think it was interesting for me to research and I appreciate the. That with the coin flip, I got the I'm for the tax because it raised a lot of good points just from a tax perspective. And just want to give you all some nerdy news updates on what's going on right now. Real quick. South Carolina, effective May of 2024 is the latest state to say that retailers should no longer collect and remit sales tax on feminine hygiene products. That includes tampons, right, y'all? Have we said sanitary napkins yet? Sanitary napkins.
[00:16:38] Speaker A: Sanitary napkins. Oh, God.
[00:16:40] Speaker B: And other.
[00:16:41] Speaker A: Is this like a support group?
[00:16:43] Speaker C: No, I don't like that one.
[00:16:44] Speaker B: I know, but it's just because sanitary napkins. Yeah. Not like ASMR for you.
[00:16:48] Speaker C: I mean, aren't all napkins sandwiches? I mean, I would hope.
[00:16:51] Speaker A: I would hope so.
[00:16:51] Speaker C: I don't want any dirty napkins. Exactly. Can you give me a bacteria napkin?
I don't want that either.
[00:16:57] Speaker A: Oh, my God.
[00:16:58] Speaker B: Not an antibacterial wipe, but a bacterial wipe. I don't like the word wipe.
[00:17:03] Speaker A: Are you gonna roll through the entire list of menstrual products?
[00:17:06] Speaker C: I mean.
[00:17:06] Speaker A: Cause if you really are, this is gonna get really uncomfortable. Like, we're gonna start talking about diva cups and everything else.
[00:17:11] Speaker B: I'm gonna make you say all of them. Diva cups. I don't even know what that is.
[00:17:16] Speaker C: I don't know what that is.
[00:17:17] Speaker B: Let's just also say, Tim. I mean, I know we're not getting political, but this has kind of been a bipartisan issue, which hasn't been. Which isn't very common, as we know.
[00:17:25] Speaker A: Reaching across the aisle.
[00:17:26] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:17:27] Speaker A: You know?
[00:17:27] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:17:28] Speaker A: Good stuff.
[00:17:28] Speaker B: I mean, I like it. So a lot of these bills are Republican and Democrat sponsored across the board. So I love seeing that as it should be. So that's where we are. So there's, like I said, there's 24 states and District of Columbia that exempt menstrual hygiene products. And I'm imagining over the next year or two, we're gonna see even more. So we'll have to touch base and.
[00:17:50] Speaker A: See from the ignorant male perspective, I would like to say that this episode was awesome because I've learned a ton. So thank you, Jenny.
[00:17:57] Speaker B: You're welcome. What are a couple of those words again?
[00:17:59] Speaker A: Menstrual feminine napkin. Feminine hygiene product tampon.
[00:18:06] Speaker B: I'm really proud of you guys. Good job today.
[00:18:08] Speaker C: You did a great job. And only a couple apologies in Mississippi and just the sensitive ears of everybody.
[00:18:17] Speaker B: But we do not apologize because we should not be sensitive.
[00:18:20] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:18:21] Speaker C: Me and Tim said something.
[00:18:22] Speaker B: Oh, I'm sure you did.
[00:18:23] Speaker C: I can't remember what it was. I was like my virgin ears.
Since I wrote it.
[00:18:30] Speaker A: I'm sure you'll get it on the playback, man. And you'll be able to get it.
[00:18:32] Speaker C: Yeah. We'll go back and look at this.
[00:18:35] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Congratulations, Jenny. Fantastic job on the episode today. I truly appreciate it. Good job coordinating it as always. JB, awesome job producing.
[00:18:45] Speaker C: Thank you.
[00:18:45] Speaker A: Way to interject with the little bit of humor and can't wait to see the trim job that you have to do on this.
[00:18:51] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:18:51] Speaker B: And Tim, great job on the debate. Again, congratulations.
[00:18:54] Speaker A: Come on. Thank you so much.
[00:18:55] Speaker B: Not a sore loser at all.
[00:18:56] Speaker A: Not one single bit. I love it. You can listen to us on any of the locations where you typically pick up your podcasts. We always appreciate any kind or fan mail or any sort of questions that you may have. You can email us.
[00:19:10] Speaker B: Yes, email
[email protected]. dot.
[00:19:14] Speaker A: There you go. And we look forward to talking to you next time for Jenny, JB and Tim. Have a great afternoon.
[00:19:20] Speaker B: Tampons.
[00:19:21] Speaker A: Bam.
[00:19:21] Speaker C: Wow.
